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Monday, October 20, 1997 Guests: FBI Special Agent Gary Stremcha and Sheriff Charles Lamar This was an extraordinary meeting in the Oxford Town Hall. A formal public meeting regarding the death of Ed Pierce.. FBI Special Agent Gary Stremcha was present to fill us in on the events leading to the death of Ed Pierce. Sheriff Charles Lamar joined the meeting to present his point of view. Overall this was a high tension evening in which the group learned some important relevant facts and perhaps more so, gained insight into the Sheriff's perspective on the cases. Opening Remarks: FBI Special Agent Gary Stremcha: Good evening. As you all know I'm here to speak on the recent developments in the Pierce chase. I was sent into the Las Vegas area late last Thursday night to check on a solid tip that we received on the Tip Line in Oxford. We then received a call from Ms. Vicky Symons wanting to turn herself in last Friday at 3:26 p.m. She called from a neighbors trailer from Shady Acres Trailer Park, and I responded with reinforcements and we arrested Ms. Symons. When we raided the Jepson's trailer, we did not, however, find Pierce there with Ms. Symons. She said that he had gone to the Strip to go do some gambling. I followed this lead and went out to the Strip in my unmarked vehicle. At 3:54 on Friday, I spotted a man matching Pierce's description walking the strip heading northbound on the sidewalk, facing southbound traffic in front of the Stardust Casino. I drove past Pierce and got a better look at him, and then turned my lights on. Pierce ran and headed next door to CircusCircus. Pierce then enters the Horseshoe Casino and sets off the alarms as I am pursuing him. He is then pursued from the inside by the security personnel of the casino, Pierce turns, opens fire and heads out the door. At this time, I had reached the casino with the Las Vegas SWAT team and the Nevada State Police. Pierce turns back around and heads back into the casino taking with him two hostages. A Ms. Barbara Ragsdale and one Mr. Bill Madsen. From that point, Pierce forces Madsen to take the elevator in the lobby up to the roof. Our teams assemble out front with help from the Las Vegas Fire Dept. as we try to bargain to bring Pierce down and get the hostages out safely. Pierce opens fire. We have the casino evacuated. Pierce uses Madsen as a shield and a bargaining tool. He threatened to throw Madsen over the side of the building if we didn't back off. Pierce continues firing. We open fire and Madsen was killed in the crossfire. Pierce threw Madsen's body over the side which landed on one of the squad cars. At this time we commandeered another elevator in the building at the same time we began dropping tear gas from the helicopters above. Pierce began to throw the tear gas back over the side, and then must have realized what our plans were because he threw some of the tear gas down the elevator shoot that our team was coming up. We were forced to evacuate that plan and look for an alternate route. Pierce at this time starts using Ms. Ragsdale as a bargaining tool and also begins to threaten to shoot her or throw her over the side of the building. We assemble a team with a sniper to find an alternate route up to the roof. We found an alternate route used by the maintenance crew. A maintenance elevator that only goes to the top floor and then a set of stairs that lead to the roof hidden from view by the air conditioners on the top of the building. Lieutenant Paul Dickerson, our sniper, reached the roof with members of our team, waited for the signal, and then took out Pierce with a shot to the back of his head. At that point Pierce had been close to the edge still opening fire and holding Ms. Ragsdale, because of the blast to his head, Pierce's body slumped forward sending Ms. Ragsdale down. That is when our team went to check Pierce's body and concluded he was in fact dead. I can take questions now. Q: Do you think Pierce initiated the shoot-out intentionally? A: I think he was scared, and it was a last resort. But he was carrying an armload of weaponry. At this point Sheriff Charles Lamar joined the meeting. Opening Remarks, Sheriff Charles Lamar: Elizabeth Jones, Information Officer asked the Sheriff what information he might have for the group. His response follows: Well, my ex and I are upset that Macy is still missing, of course. I am relieved that none of our own officers are injured, but I wish I could say the came for the Las Vegas officers. And, of course, we did lose a hostage, with another one injured. I would be happy to answer any questions now. Question & Answer session with Sheriff Lamar and Agent Stremcha. Note that we have retained comments from the audience and show the detailed debate that occurred between Agent Stremcha and the Sheriff: Q = Question C = Comment EJ = Elizabeth Jones AGENT = Agent Stremcha SHERIFF = Sheriff Lamar Q: Is Vicky cooperating and does she know anything about Macy? If no, who was she talking about in her phone call? Sheriff: Vicky is cooperating but said she knows nothing about Macy. Q: Any idea why Ed thought he could go into a casino fully loaded up with weapons? SHERIFF: Well, there are no machines to detect them in a casino from what I've been told. They didn't know he was armed when he ran in there. Well, of course, I was not in Las Vegas and neither was the author of the article. You know the press. AGENT: He did set off metal detectors. Most of the casinos in Vegas do have metal detectors. I'm not really sure why Pierce would go into the casinos carrying all of those weapons. Of course he may not have been originally planning on going into the casino at all. I think he got scared when I spotted him. SHERIFF: Humph, well, I guess I was misinformed then. Q: Did Vicky have anything to add about Macy's whereabouts? AGENT: No. Ms. Symons did not add anything about Macy's whereabouts but we just arrested her. We didn't question her at that time. SHERIFF: I'd like to know if you're bringing her back here so that I can question her. AGENT: It was my understanding that she is being questioned, and that interview will be posted later this evening or tomorrow morning. SHERIFF: Well, if she is returned here, I'm sure we will find out if she knows anything about the disappearance of my only child. AGENT: Sir, we are questioning her and we will let you know any developments as soon as we can. SHERIFF: Thank you, sir. Q: Why did Vicky turn herself in? AGENT: She said she was tired of running and that Ed was beginning to tire of her. Q: Sheriff Lamar, have you scheduled a lie detector test for yourself, if no, why not? SHERIFF: No, of course not. I am the Sheriff. There is no reason for me to take one. AGENT: Sir, if you want to clear your name as your ex wife did, I would assume you'd want to take that polygraph as soon as you possibly could. Don't you want to clear your name? SHERIFF: No one would reasonably expect that I would kidnap my own daughter. C: Your wife took one. SHERIFF: My wife was with her and is not a law enforcement officer. AGENT: Sir, I am a law enforcement agent myself, and if my daughter were missing and people were possibly going to accuse me I know that I personally would want to clear my name any way possible. SHERIFF: There is absolutely no reason for me to take one according the City Manager. My name has not been besmirched, sir. It does not need to be cleared. I have done nothing wrong. AGENT: I'm sorry sir, but if your wife was willing to, I don't understand why you wouldn't. Especially if you have nothing to hide. SHERIFF: As I said, my wife is not an official of this county. Q: Why not take it just to show your voters what a good guy you are? SHERIFF: There is no reason to suspect that my daughters disappearance has anything to do with my office. AGENT: Sir, no one said that it did. I just simply cannot understand why you would say you would take the test and then blatantly put it off...especially if you have nothing to hide. SHERIFF: Its time to focus on the criminals, not the innocent parties. If it comes down to it, I don't have to take any test. And I herewith refuse Lie detectors are never reliable. That's why they are not admissible in court. There is no reason to suspect the Sheriff of the county! A few comments at this point: C: He has used the herewith word...means he's sought legal counsel already. C: Your protest makes you look suspicious. Q: Was the Van located? AGENT: I don't have the information on that, yet. I'll have to get back to you on it. SHERIFF: I don't know anything about where the van is. Q: Why is Vicky being arrested...because Ed stole the van and she was with him? SHERIFF: Vicky aided in the escape from Oxford. We intend to charge her with aiding and abetting a fugitive. She is also wanted for questioning in the disappearance of my daughter. There may also be some charges in Texas, but she will be coming here first. Q: Why did you turn your lights on in your unmarked car? Did you think he would just stop? AGENT: It's procedure. I was hoping that he would give up peacefully. I was wrong. Q: Sheriff, have you been questioned extensively yet? SHERIFF: NO, and I don't intend to be questioned. There is no reason to suspect that I have done anything wrong. C: The sheriff is getting mighty defensive. SHERIFF: I am not hostile, I am the Sheriff. AGENT: <shaking his head> Sheriff, don't you want to clear your name? If you have done nothing wrong, then you have nothing to hide. SHERIFF: I told you all, my name does not need clearing. Of course, I have nothing to hide and I resent your implications. Agent, you are a guest in my department and I expect your cooperation. AGENT: Sir, I am not implicating that you had anything to do with your daughter's disappearance. I am simply wondering why you are not cooperating in the search for you own daughter, Sheriff. SHERIFF: There is no reason to suspect Macy has been taken over state lines anymore and the case is now under my jurisdiction. I believe I have cooperated in the search I have been out 24-7 searching for her and investigating this matter. C: But isn't there a chance you might know something that would be of help? Q: Did Vicky help Ed and Tony out of the police car when they escaped? AGENT: We won't know that until Ms. Symons has been totally questioned. Q: Perhaps you're too close to this case, Sheriff . Maybe it would be better if Vicky were questioned by a more "neutral" party. When you called in the FBI, didn't you relinquished jurisdiction? SHERIFF: Vicky will be questioned by the appropriate people under my jurisdiction. I have never relinquished anything, Ma'am. The FBI has been ASSISTING us until jurisdiction was established by evidence she has been removed from the sate. AGENT: Well, that's really a question for Agent Hillman. She is handling the FBI involvement on the disappearance of Macy Lamar, however the FBI's involvement in finding Pierce was completely under our jurisdiction. If Ms. Symons leads us to believe that she knows Macy's whereabouts and she is out of Mississippi's borders it falls in our jurisdiction. Does that answer your question? Q: Sheriff, your refusal to take the polygraph is not being taken well. It DOES look SUSPICIOUS to many! You may not be Sheriff much longer. What would the media say about that? SHERIFF: Media? This is a local matter, Mr. Peters, not a matter for outside media to deal with. When and IF I am ever named as a suspect, I will deal with any suspicions. Of course, I am NOT a suspect. Q: If you are running the investigation, you aren't going to name yourself as a suspect, will you? SHERIFF: Now, now, everyone, I think we should end this conference for the evening. EJ: Sir, we do have more questions. SHERIFF: All right but I have to go soon. Q: Sheriff, if your refusal arouses suspicion that you may be involved, resources will be devoted to investigating you that could go to pursuing other theories...Doesn't that bother you? SHERIFF: No one needs to investigate me and ALL resources should be directed in other directions to find the perpetrators. Q: Sheriff, I know you are upset about Macy, but we need more inf. to help find her. Who were you having an affair with? SHERIFF: An affair...how...I will not discuss that matter. It is a closed matter. Not up for your discussions. I have a private life. Q: Wouldn't it be in the best interest of the investigation if you withdrew yourself from this case? SHERIFF: I will not withdraw. I am the Sheriff. AGENT: I would be inclined to agree, Sheriff. SHERIFF: I will not withdraw. I am the Sheriff of this county. I was elected and will remain on any investigation in my purview until I am removed..er reelected. AGENT: Sheriff, you are too personally involved with this case. SHERIFF: Of course I am personally involved. That is a ... never mind. AGENT: Sir, I am inclined to agree that because you are so personally involved in this case that it is going to affect your performance and handling in it. Aren't you concerned about getting your daughter back? SHERIFF: Agent Stremcha, I believe this is not an appropriate discussion to be conducting in public. C: Where should it be conducted? SHERIFF: Your questions border on rudeness, Sir. Q: Sheriff, the person in your private life could have something to do with the disappearance of your daughter. SHERIFF: You have no evidence to substantiate that claim. Whether or not there is anyone in my life is no ones business but mine. C: Macy made it her business. We need all the evidence we can get. There is very little so far. SHERIFF: I will not be grilled like a common thief. AGENT: I mean no disrespect, Sir, but you are being asked honest questions and I am inclined to agree with many of the people here. SHERIFF: This is a matter we should discuss in my office, SIR. SHERIFF: These people have no right to question me either. AGENT: Sir, I cannot believe that you came here with the idea that you would not be questioned on this. SHERIFF: This is a public discussion Sir, your questions are in the form of an interrogation. I will not be interrogated in public like this. Hardly. Q: Sheriff, on entering PUBLIC office, you gave up your private life. Is it then, that you are trying to tell us that due process of law does not extend to you, and that no one has the right or ability to question you because you are "the Sheriff?" Does that put you above the law? SHERIFF: Everyone has a private life, elected officials, too. It is no one's business who I might or might not have dinner with and I resent the implications all of you are making. I think this is a political ploy on the part of Mazza. I am not above the law. I have said repeatedly that when and IF I am named as a suspect I will deal with questions in the appropriate manner. Q: Sir, you're involved in the MIDDLE of this case! Don't you think that involves you? C: <Mazza doesn't have to do anything, you're doing it to yourself> I think that you should stop worrying about yourself and think about getting your daughter back! AGENT: Sir, your child is missing. In every missing persons case the family of the missing person is questioned. I cannot understand why you will not cooperate. SHERIFF: I AM cooperating. I will not however resort to the junk science of a lie detector. My daughter is my concern at this point not these silly political questions. NOT when the parent is a law enforcement officer. AGENT: Sir, even law enforcement agents are questioned in cases where a member of his/her family is missing. Q: It is your daughter that was kidnapped, if a detective in your department failed to question the parents in a similar case, wouldn't that be overlooking serious leads? SHERIFF: There is no evidence pointing to me. AGENT: Lie detector tests are 98 % effective. There is very little margin for error. SHERIFF: Then why aren't they admissible in court, Agent? Q: Have you ever been accused of mistreating your daughter? I think that this may have some real bearing on the case, maybe why she just up and disappeared. SHERIFF: Of course NOT. What a horrible accusation. Who do you represent? C: It wasn't an accusation, sir, it was a question. SHERIFF: Are you perhaps in the employ of MAZZA??? C: I REPRESENT THE PEOPLE WHO CARE ABOUT MACY. EJ: Thank you Gentlemen, you have certainly given us much to think about. At this time, I am going to give each of our guests a last opportunity to make a comment. Agent Stremcha, will you go first please? AGENT: I'd like to thank all of you for helping us to find Pierce. It was long and grueling and unfortunately, it ended in a shoot out. I would like to remind all of you that this has been very strenuous and that the Sheriff has been under much stress from running for office, his daughter's disappearance, and apprehending Pierce. Please keep that in mind. Again, thank you all for your help and involvement in helping up to find Pierce. Have a good evening everyone. And good night everyone, it has been a pleasure working with you. EJ: Thank you, Sir. Sheriff Lamar, your final thoughts? SHERIFF: I would like to ask each of you to volunteer in the search effort for my daughter. And to turn out for Election Day, of course. Our efforts will be rewarded I am sure Macy will be returned to us in good health. Thank you all for coming. Good night, EJ, Agent Stremcha. EJ: Thank you very much sir, good night we do wish you the speedy and safe return of Macy. A few of the typical comments and sentiments following this evening's discussion. C: And be sure to vote for the candidate who has NO FAITH in investigations. C: Is he kidding about Election Day? C: Wants us to vote for him. I'd be more concerned about my daughter than an election. C: I definitely think the Sheriff needs to step down and let someone else handle this case. C: He is so defensive. I don't understand the big deal about the lie detector test. C: The more he stonewalls, the more suspicious I become! C: His "friend" is somehow involved. C: I think he owed someone some money and they have Macy. C: There is something under the surface here. Tuesday, October 21, 1997 Guests: Sheriff Robert Grayson in Las Vegas with Mr. Tate James, Owner of the Horseshoe Casino, Mr. Tom Berry owner of the Handy Nickel who made the 911 call, and Ms. Sheila Penn neighbor of Victoria Symons in the Trailer Park where Vicky turned herself in. We had several guests speak with us on this night. All were gathered together at the Las Vegas Sheriff's office to be able to speak with us as a group. We want to thank the Las Vegas Sheriff's Department for their gracious assistance in bringing these witnesses here to speak with us. Opening Remarks - Sheriff Grayson: Hello everybody, my name is Sheriff Robert Grayson. I have a few people here with me tonight to answer some questions about the recent turn of events in our area. But before I introduce everyone to you, I want you all to know that Ms. Ragsdale is doing fine even though she is a bit shaken. Also, Ms. Symons is on her way back to Oxford being escorted by the FBI. I didn't get to question her, just filling you in on what I know up to date. Now, I'd like to introduce the first of four guests that I have with me this evening. I'd like to introduce you all to Mr. Tate James, the owner of the Horseshoe Casino. Mr. Tate James - Owner, Horseshoe Casino: Hello everyone. Really all I'd like to say is that this whole incident has really brought business to a stand still for me. There is about 3 million dollars worth of damage to my casino, the press is destroying the establishment image, and I've had to close the place down. Also, if I might take a moment to make a statement about Mr. Madsen's tragic death. He was a valued employee at Horseshoe, always on time, always helpful...always a very nice man. What has happened is terrible, an abomination! For 27 years, we had Bill working with us... It's just horrible, he was such a good man. I extend my sincerest grief and condolences to his family. We are very sorry about Mr. Madsen's death and also the impact on the Horseshoe Mr. James, are you ready to take some questions? Q: Sir, had you ever seen Ed Pierce before? A: Not until that evening....I had heard something about it in the news, but I can't really say I had paid much attention to it. Q: But you had not seen him in the casino before? A: No, I hadn't. He might have been in the casino, but I'm not really sure, we get so many people. I'd have to have them check the security tapes. Q: Do you carry any kind of gun with you? A: I own and carry a gun, it's a rough business, you know. Q: Was there ever a confrontation between Mr. James and the murdered? Q: Did Mr. James ever see these two together in his establishment? A: No, I never had anything to do with Pierce. He was just a name in the paper until this disaster occurred. Thank you Mr. James, I am sorry for all of your losses and appreciate your time. Mr. Tom Berry - Owner, Handy Nickel: Hey! Hi everyone! How are you? I am! That's right, I made the call! Wow! What a crowd! <sheepish grin> Oh I'm sorry for being so hyped. But I'm still amazed about all the publicity the phone call has brought on! You know, I even got a call from that Ricky Lake Show the other day to be on! Isn't that wild?! Q: Have you ever seen Pierce in your shop before? If so was he alone or with other people? A: No, I hadn't seen him around before. Maybe passing by on the street or something but not in the shop. Q: Sir, did any of the gunfire hit your shop:? A: One stray bullet hit one of the front windows, but no real damage! You should have seen it though. The guy was firing all over the place! Q: Why didn't he try to shoot Ed? A: 911 wouldn't let him. Q: When did you call 911? Was it after the firing started? A: When I first heard gun shots. At first, I thought maybe it was some fireworks or something, you know? But then I went and checked out front and saw that Pierce guy with guns in both hands just firing all over the place ....into the casino, across the street, you name it...he was shooting at it! Q: Was Pierce wearing a trenchcoat? (soooo many weapons, you know...and in Nevada!) A: Yeah, he had a dark trench coat on...went down to about his knees from what I could see. Q: Wouldn't a man wearing a trenchcoat have drawn someone else's attention? A: Nah! Not in Vegas, we have a lot of people from all over, and they all dress differently. We get a lot of weird ones, too. So I think he blended in pretty good. Q: Didn't the FBI Agent last night say that they had SWAT team? A: Yes, there was a SWAT team on the scene. Q: I'm confused. No disrespect, but if there was a swat team why call 911? A: The call came in and the team was dispatched. Pierce started shooting at the security team and FBI agent, the call was made and the SWAT team arrived. Thank you very much Mr. Berry Ms. Sheila Penn - Shady Acres Trailer Park: Hey all! I'm Shiela Penn. Well, as you all know, Vicky came to me the day that all this happened. She and I had run into each other when they, Ed and her, moved into the Jepson place. They didn't say much, real quiet. 'Cept some nights...I could swear I heard Ed hitting her! But I wasn't sure, so I didn't ask any questions. It wasn't like I saw them much. But when I did see Vicky...she seemed kinda distant, but she always smiled and said "Hi." Well, anyway, Friday, she shows up at my door...asking to use the phone. She seems kinda upset, so I say sure and ask her to come on in. Ask her if she wants some coffee or something. I noticed she was a 'lil upset. Kinda in a rush. She was looking all over my place and I caught a glimpse of the back of her neck...it was all bruised. Like she'd been hit or something. Well, I ask her if, you know, she needs anything. She keeps asking for the phone. So I say sure, and point her to the phone. The next thing I know, she's calling 911 and saying that she wants to turn herself in! I was totally confused. I mean, I thought this girl was gonna turn that creep in for hitting her or something and she says she wants to turn herself in. So I'm like all confused and everything. So I wait 'til she gets off the phone and I ask her what's going on. She says to me that she's wanted ....kinda proud or something.... at first and then she breaks down into this fit of laughter and tears at the same time. It was really weird. Then she got up and went back to the Jepson place. I went outside and watched her go, and decide to watch to see what's gonna happen so I finish watching her get over there and like three minutes later the cops show up. It was really weird, like out of a movie or something. Anyway, anyone have any questions? Q: You never actually had a conversation with her? A: Not really, she was sort of quiet. I mean we said hi when we saw each other, and she was nice and all...but we didn't talk. Q: Did she mention or did you see another girl with her? A: No, she didn't mention a girl...but she did mention that she wanted to get out of Vegas...Hollywood or something. But nothing special. Q: If you had to guess, what do you think caused her bruises (based on shape and location of them)? A: Well, some nights when I'd come home from work, I'd hear some noises like you know things breaking. Stuff I've heard before out here in this trailer park, you know....like when a guy is beating his wife. I just assumed when I saw the bruise that she had been hit by the guy with something. Closing Questions to Sheriff Grayson: Q: During transport of Vicky or when you got her has she said anything either way about anything at all that we might need to know? A: No, I'm sorry. I didn't talk to her. Q: Any word on the missing daughter's location? A: No, we don't have any word yet. Wednesday, October 22, 1997 Guests: George and Allison Pierce, parents of Edward Pierce Prior to the Pierce's interview, Mickey Nelson shared this information from a recent Tip Line call from Madame Raylene. She reported that Madam Raylene stated: 'Macy is not dead. She says that what she saw... was that something is buried that has to do with Macy's disappearance...but she can't see exactly what it is. She did say that she is sure that it is something big, but did not say how big." Opening Remarks -- George Pierce: Thank you. Let me apologize for the disconnect last week, we had some horrible ISP problems last week. It's all fixed now. Thank you, for your condolences. It's been quite a shock to us and very hard on our family. I'd like to start off where I left off before the connection went down. I started to tell you all about an incident that occurred with a neighbor's child, his name was Tommy. Well, the two of them got into some sort of argument, and Ed got a little violent. That was really the first incident with any of his friends in which he became violent. My wife and I didn't think anything of it, but it was sort of out of character because Ed always just picked on animals. Later that summer, my wife and I had to go out of town and couldn't take the children with us, so we left Ed and Xavier with a friend of the family--more like family really the boys always referred to them as their aunt and uncle-- for a couple of weeks. When we got back, Ed seemed much more distant than he normally did. Later on, it isn't the easiest to recount, during that school year is when Ed really came into some trouble. Ed got into an argument with Ben..the son of the people Ed stayed with over the summer. Ed was in the third grade at the time. They were at a school field trip, standing at this fountain when Ben said something and Ed pushed him in. It was tragic. Ben died from the electrical shock of the lights in the fountain. Ed went into complete distress, and we put him into an institution. Some of the locals said he did it on purpose, we didn't believe them. He loved Ben. Later on, after Ed had been institutionalized, we were informed that Ed had been molested by Ben's father, and that Ed had taken his anger out on Ben. His mother, Xavier, and I then went into family counseling with Ed. I'll take some questions. Question and Answer session with George and Allison Pierce: Q: How did he react after that incident did you talk to him about it? A: He wouldn't talk about anything after Ben died. He just holed up in his room really, and when people began to say that he did it intentionally, well, my wife and I decided to pull him out of school. That's when we noticed that Ed was becoming extremely violent and depressive so we sent him off to an institution for a while. Q: Mister Pierce, how long were you in counseling with Ed? A: We did family counseling up until Ed was about 13. He seemed to be pulling out of it, and getting back into life so the therapist suggested that maybe we take some time away from therapy for a while to see how things went. Later when Geena died, we tried to get Ed to go back into counseling ..any kind...family...or by himself...he wouldn't hear of it. Q: Was he on medication as a child and what about as an adult? A: He was on medication on and off from about 11 years of age on up into his late teens. They were only basically prescribed to help him out of bouts of depression. Q: Have you questioned your friend's of the family about any possible abuse that could have happened during your absence? Or have you talked to Xavier about it? A: We did approach them about it, and they denied it, however Xavier does remember times when Ed was left alone with them, and he said that Ed would get very violent after spending time with them. Xavier told us that Ed had bragged about killing their dog just to spite them. But, Xavier said that they seemed to have an affinity for Ed. And they generally left Xavier alone to do what he pleased. But never Ed, he said they seemed to constantly eye him. They never admitted it. Q: Was Ed a troubled child, did he have many friends, & when did his trouble with the law begin? A: After Ben's death, Ed became very withdrawn for quite a while and we kept him in therapy. He didn't have very many friends but when he reached about 13, he really seemed to be coming out of it. In high school, he seemed to always be surrounded by people. And he didn't have any problems with any part of the law until Geena died. As for mental disease in our family no. But Ed's biological mother was institutionalized for some time because of deep depression. Q: Terribly sorry to have to ask this at this time but, do you know who his natural parents are? A: <sighs deeply on verge of tears> Would it be all right if my wife answered some questions? Of course George, let us know if this becomes too much for both of you. A: (Mrs. Allison Pierce) We do know who his mother is she's a young woman who lives out in Idaho, we don't know much about her accept that her name is Jamie, and that she was very young when she had Ed and couldn't take care of him. Shortly after she gave up Ed, we heard that she had a severe breakdown and was institutionalized. After that we had heard nothing. As for Ed's father, he left Jamie after he found out she was pregnant. We never learned his name, but Jamie told us that he had been arrested the last she had heard and that she wanted nothing to do with him. We asked her to reveal his name, but she refused. Q: Was your son ever tested for Schizophrenia? Did he complain of hearing voices sometimes? A: <nods her head slowly> Ed was tested for D.I.D. (disassociative Identity Disorder--multiple personalities), but the results were negative. As for voices? <shakes her head slowly> He never spoke about hearing any voices. Q: Did Ed ever talk about a Victoria Symons? With the exception of the phone call, has he tried to contact you at any time? A: The last time we had spoken to Ed was a few weeks after he had, I'm sorry a few days...(still dazed by the last few weeks)...after he had been arrested. To let us know that he had been arrested but that's really the last we had heard from him up....up...up until <tears> the message on the machine. Q: Is Xavier with you two now? How is he doing? A: <nods her head> Xavier is staying with us. <DEEP breath> He's as distraught as the rest of us. Xavier and Ed were close until about two years ago...after Geena died...Ed just shut down and wouldn't let anyone in...not even Xavier. Q: In any conversation with Jamie, was there ever any mention of another child (a twin?)? A: No, Ed was an only child. . Q: What does Jamie look like? Petite blond by any chance? A: Jamie? <thinking back> No, she had light brown hair with red highlights like Ed's. But she was rather small...and very quiet. Reserved almost...and scared. Q: What kind of relationship did Ed have with Geena? A: Ed and Geena were very close, and they had a lot of friends in school. <sighs> It was like this large crowd of kids just always seemed to follow them. Once I went to pick Ed up from school, and a large crowd of kids were sitting around him....just listening to him talk with Geena right there by his side. She always seemed mesmerized by him. But right before she died, Ed and Geena seemed to be fighting. At least that is what Xavier had told me...when she died....Ed felt responsible, I think. <thinking back> He became very quiet and depressed again. I think he always dwelled on the fact that he was there when she died, and he walked away virtually unharmed. Q: Did the name Rory mean *anything* to you? Even an imaginary friend from Ed's childhood? Anything? A: <shakes her head> No, Rory was just someone that Ed made up. He was just an imaginary friend as far as I know. Q: Did Ed know Jamie? Why was she scared, or do you mean scared looking? A: No, Jamie never met Ed to my knowledge. We didn't really keep contact with Jamie after the adoption. But when I said 'scared', I meant that she was young and seemed frightened to be having a child so young. C: Our heartfelt thanks to you and to George. We understand how hard a situation this is for you. We appreciate your coming and talking with us. We know this is a time of extreme grief for your family. A: <nods sadly> It's been very hard on all of us. Thank you all for your concern, George and I do appreciate it. You all have a good evening and God bless you all. Thursday, October 23, 1997 Guest: Victoria Symons Opening Remarks: Hi. I guess you all have some questions for me tonight, but...ummm...<nods tiredly> I have somethin to say first. I want to get it out now that I did NOT help stage Ed and Tony's breakout. I had no idea what Ed had done until he called me that night. Other than that, I'm really tired from the past week and all the questioning from the cops, so I really don't have much to say about anything. But..I guess, I can answer some questions. Question and Answer session with Victoria Symons: Q: Who was the girl you were talking about in your phone call? A: The girl, I didn't know her name. She was some prostitute that Ed had been fooling around with when we were at the hotel one night. She was a nobody but it really bothered me because Ed seemed to want me to be like her and I couldn't stand it. Q: Have the police charged you with anything? A: No, they haven't, yet. Q: What did Ed tell you about the escape? A: He really didn't talk much about it. He said it was just an accident really and since he had the opportunity...he wanted out of there. Said he got lucky. Q: Are you, by chance, "acquainted" with Sheriff Lamar? A: No, never met the guy. I've seen him in the papers, and heard that I might be questioned by him, but that's all I really know about him. Q: Vicky, you don't have to answer this but were you drunk when you called your Mom? A: A little. I was mostly high. Ed and I had just had a fight about him wanting me to go out and get us some money. And suddenly...it was like I wanted to talk to my Mom...er somethin. I dunno why. Q: If you guys didn't have Macy, why was her Library Card found in Phelps' hotel room? A: Library card? I haven't heard anything about a library card...I don't know... I have no idea why Tony had it. Q: Did Ed ever mention another car being involved with the accident that led to his escape? A: No, Ed never said anything about another car...but he didn't really talk much about the accident...he just said he was lucky and took his chance. Q: Did Ed ever mention Macy to you? A: No...not until he heard that they thought we had her...and then he got a real kick out of it. He thought it was funny that they thought we had her. Q: The bruises on your neck....just how abusive was Ed? Or was that "Rory"? A: <taking a deep breath> Ed wasn't really abusive until we got to New Orleans gave him that bullwhip...well...<shaking head> he just got real mean...Rory just seemed to seethe right out of him. Rory was like Ed's dark side. Q: Didn't he tell you anything about what was going on? A: Going on with what? Ed didn't really tell me much...he was always quiet about things...really inward thinker you know? We only really talked when we were high, and then we talked about getting out of Oxford...going to Hollywood...getting away from everything...Is that what you mean? Or do you mean about where we were going and stuff? Q: Yes, but I hoped he could have shed some light on all this. A: He never really talked about it. I mean, I asked him about Rory because my friends told me to check out his diary around here. So I did when he was in jail. One night when we were out looking at the stars and high ...I guess we were still in Mississippi with Tony at the time...I asked him about who Rory was. And he laughed and said he and Rory were twin souls but that he hated Rory in a way because Rory was so violent. I never got to see this side of him until New Orleans when we began to run out of money. Q: Did you ever look in the trunk of the first car you guys rode in...the one Ed took from the mall? A: We opened it to put stuff in it...there was nothing in it...look, we didn't have Macy ok? <tired sigh> We didn't even know who the girl was until we read in the papers that they thought we had her...and it was something that struck as weird...to me...Ed thought it was funny...but we didn't have her. Q: So Ed did seem different after the accident, like not the same person? A: Not really, he seemed like the same guy I'd been seeing before he was arrested. He didn't start getting weird until New Orleans. Up until then, we partied...smoked out...drank...and had a good time all the way down to New Orleans. Q: Was Ed an exiting thrill to your life? Did you find personal enjoyment from this kinda lifestyle? Do you forgive ED? A: Ed was fun until he started hitting me...until we started fighting and all ...<rubbing temples>... And he showed me all sorts of new things. Like the Shovel Parties and all sorts of new ways to get unimaginable highs. And yeah, it was fun at first when we left Oxford...I hated the place...It was hole, ok?...But then Tony started getting sick...and we started running of money...and Ed wanted me to go out on the streets and work it for some...and after we left Tony in New Orleans and I found out he was dead...all I wanted to do was drink and get high...everything is a blur and all the details kinda blend into one...I wanted to go to Hollywood and Ed was gonna take me there...so yeah I guess I liked it for a while. Until I realized that he was gonna kill me. Q: I noticed your ID had the words "Invalid" on it. Why is that? A: It was a fake ID. The cops took it from me and I guess they stamped that on it. Q: What do you know about Ed's & Tony's escape? Did they have help? A: Ed said it was just an accident. He lucked out and ran. Q: Do you know where he got the weapons and cell phone? A: Well, he had a gun from the escape...and then I think he picked up another one in New Orleans...but I might be remembering wrong cause the days and the towns sort of blended together for me...I know he stole the cell phone but I don't remember where or how...he got a knife in New Orleans...but the other gun...I think he got that in Vegas with some of the winnings. But I'm not really sure. I didn't go with him when he did things...he was the one in charge... Q: Were you with Ed at the mall in Oxford when he stole the car, or did he pick you up? A: No, he picked me up that night after work. Q: I know Ed and Tony's break out was an accident but what did happen? What caused the break out? A: Ed just said that the van crashed. Other than that he said he didn't really know what happened. But when the van stopped moving Ed figured a way out of it. But that's all he told me. Q: Did Ed ever say anything to you about Purity, and the charges pending against him in her murder case? A: No, but I didn't ask him about it because I didn't believe he did it at first. I thought they just wanted to blame him and link it to Ego Shovel...But now I really think he did, yes...I think he was capable of it. Q: Did you and/or Ed have any connection to Reed Chambeau, owner of the mall? A: No. I didn't and I don't think Ed did. Q: How did Tony get Macy's library card? A: I don't know. I didn't even know that he had Macy's library card until a few minutes ago when someone else asked me about it. Q: When you called your parents, you said Ed didn't want you anymore because of "the other girl." Who is she? A: She was a prostitute that Ed had just had sex with...with me in the room. I was really angry and high when I called my mom. I don't really remember much of what I said. Q: Vicky, do you know where Ed and Tony were between escape and picking you up? A: Ed told me that he had to take care of a few things...like getting the car to leave in. Then he said he spent most of the day out in the woods hiding. Q: Did Tony tell you anything about the rape charges against him? Did he say he was guilty or not? A: No, we didn't talk about the rape charges. I didn't want to ask. Q: Vicky, I read the transcript of your call to your mom. Did you know she asked if it was the Sheriff's daughter? A: I'm sorry, I don't really understand your question. I never spoke to my mom that day...just the answering machine. Q: Do you have a lawyer yet? A: Yeah, I have a lawyer. He's a public defender...I wanted one when I heard I was gonna be questioned. Q: Do you know Sheriff Lamar personally, aside from legal stuff? A: No, like I said, I had seen him in the papers and stuff. Heard he was running again, but never met him. I hear I might be questioned by him though. Q: You must have been really high, if you think you spoke to an answering machine and not your mother. A: I was pretty stoned. I didn't know what day it was most of the time. Q: According to records, you spoke with your mother..not an answering machine. She even asked you questions. Who is telling the truth? A: I'm sure my mother wouldn't lie...I had been taking a lot of stuff, I don't even remember what I said. So, if my mother says she talked to me...then she probably did. Q: I must ask...was your surrender call to police set up? I can't foresee Ed trying to go gambling so loaded down with weapons, because of casino security measures...you had told the police he was going gambling, after all.. A: No, it wasn't a set up. We had just been fighting...and Ed never left without weapons...he seemed kind of paranoid or something...after we had been fighting he said he was going out to get some money and go shopping since I wouldn't...I took a bath to straighten out my head...then laid on the couch for a while and realized that we were never gonna go to Hollywood...I was gonna end up dead before then. Ed had just beat me up pretty bad and I was bleeding pretty bad...and suddenly I just wanted to end it. I didn't want to have to run anymore...so that's when I called the cops. Q: but I don't remember much of what was said. I know I told her or the machine or someone that Ed liked the girl and that we were going to Hollywood. Friday, October 24, 1997 Guest: Detective Terrence Nelson Opening Remarks: I'm just here to give you some answers that you all have on the answers to the questions...sorry...that you all have on the case tonight. So let's go ahead. Question and Answer session with Detective Nelson: Q: Is Vicky going to be charged with anything? If so what? A: She hasn't been charged yet, but I believe she will be charged with aiding and abetting if everything she says is true about not helping them escape from the crash. I believe her though. She's pretty shook up over the whole week Q: Are you going to make her take a lie detector test? A: I don't believe that we had originally planned on it. Q: If she hasn't yet been charged, why is she still in custody? A: Well, because we are still questioning her at this time, and it looks like we will be charging her with aiding and abetting. Q: How do you account for Ed & Tony escaping, when they were cuffed from behind & strapped in seat belts? A: We assume that during the accident somehow the keys got lose and Ed got a hold of them. But to be honest, we aren't really sure how it happened. We are hoping that the Deputy will come out of coma and we can get some answers from him about the crash. Q: But wasn't the back of the van separate? A: Yes, it is separate, but there is like in many squad cars a metal cage-like divider where we can see through to the prisoners, and because the van was so torn up they may have gotten the keys somehow, I honestly don't know though. All we can do is wait for the Deputy to come out of the coma. And question him about it. Q: Any improvements with the comatose deputy? A: He seems to be in stable condition, but no idea when he'll come out of it. Q: Did Madame Raylene call today? And if yes what did she say? A: We didn't receive any calls from Madame Raylene today. Q: Was the metal divider damaged in any way? Maybe from crash or pried loose? A: It was damaged, yes. Q: Do you think it's possible that Macy might be in a hospital morgue? A: Q: Well if you believe Vicky that she, Ed, & Tony did not have Macy, who is your prime suspect at this time? A: We don't have a prime suspect, but we are going to go over every lead we have gotten so far. Especially all of the leads that Madame Raylene has given us. But we haven't narrowed out the possibility that Vicky was lying. Q: Any reason why Pierce and Phelps' transport to the old jail couldn't have been postponed until after the game? A: It was my understanding that they wanted to move Phelps and Pierce right away. Q: Was Sheriff Lamar or anyone from the Sheriff's Dept. patrolling the vicinity of the accident when it occurred? A: I am not sure about that. I'll get back to you on that. Sheriff Lamar was at the game, I don't know the exact location of the patrols. Q: Who ordered the transport? And who all would know about the transport? A: It was issued by Deputy Wills, I think, but I'll look into that. Q: Is anyone in the Dept looking into the person the Sheriff is having an affair with? Macy could have confronted her and gotten into an argument with her and been killed. A: That's quite a theory <marking it into his notes>. We are investigating the Sheriff's associates. Q: Do you know yet what the red-brown stains found on Tony's hands were from? A: Laboratory results haven't come back on that yet. I'll let you all know when we get them. Q: (Detective Nelson). Anyone have any ideas that might help us out? A: I think that someone else kidnapped her and caused the crash to get authorities looking for someone else. Q: Has Vicky confirmed that Ed was not with her and Tony at the motel? A: Vicky was with Ed. She wasn't staying with Tony. Q: Which theory of Madame Raylene are you checking on? A: Well, Madame Raylene has been giving us various details like a box that she sees and something about woods. So we've been searching the surrounding forested areas. Q: How about Macy's mother, does she have any ideas? A: She's just worried about her daughter. She doesn't really have any idea who would've taken Macy. We questioned her extensively on it. She's been very cooperative with the department. Q: Has Sheriff Lamar or his opponent ever been suspected of having mob connections? A: Not to my knowledge. We don't have much of any mob influence in Oxford. Q: Are there any other suspects other than Ed? A: Right now, we are focusing on many different leads, but no solid suspects right now, other than Ed. That library card just throws me off. But Vicky says she didn't even know about it. So we haven't narrowed Ed out of the equation. Q: Are any of those other leads even somewhat promising? A: Well, we haven't really gotten anything solid. It's very frustrating. That's why I'd be interested in hearing any theories you all have. C: Maybe they found the purse and looked through it for money. It was probably in her wallet. Could have dropped purse when someone else kidnapped her. C: I think that it was someone else, for reasons to do with her father. Q: (Detective Nelson) Ideas on why would Tony have had the library card? C: Maybe Ed was in room at one time and it got dropped there by them. C: I think it was a plant to throw you off. I think that whomever kidnapped Macy wants you to think it was Ed & Gang, and never expected them to be caught. Someone having to do with the Sheriff. C: Or, they did expect them to be caught and blamed and convicted on circumstantial evidence. C: If Vicky is telling the truth, she still doesn't know what Ed & Tony did before they picked Vicky up. C: Detective Nelson: That is an excellent point. That's one reasons why I refuse to take Ed out of the equation. He was an intelligent guy, there's no telling what he did between the time he picked up Vicky and the time of the escape. All we know that he did for sure in that time span was steal the car. C: The sheriff seemed too upset about taking a lie detector test for someone who wants to save his daughter. C: I think he was threatened. Q: Are there any exits (even windows) other than the main ones that she could've been taken from? (a bathroom window, shipping/receiving area, anything like that?) A: There are five main entrances, but they are all out front. Q: It seems strange that the Sheriff was willing to take the polygraph test, and then changed his mind, and A: Well, he's very stressed out right now with all of what's going on. With his daughter's disappearance, his divorce, and running for office again. He's just really stressed out. He really is a good guy. Although, I wonder sometimes if he might be too close to the case. I think that he just wants to be on the inside to find his daughter. I know that I wouldn't want to be taken off of a case that involved a family member. I'd want to be right there to find out every detail possible. I know that the Sheriff really wants to speak with Vicky. Q: Have you investigated the Sheriff for anything? Money (he is divorced and paying alimony(?) and child support) Or maybe something to do with his campaign? A: We've had no reason to suspect him, although, we have questioned him about his daughter. He said he was going to take a polygraph, but he hasn't scheduled it yet. Q: Is all of Vicky's time accounted for on that day up until the time they picked her up? A: Yes, as far as we can tell she is telling the truth about that day. Q: How seriously is Mazza going to be investigated? When are we getting a bio/info on him? A: I'm not, to be honest, I will find that out for you, there will be more details on the campaign investigations coming.

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