Conversation: Doris Hammack and Beatrice Carmichael

Beatrice Carmichael took care of the small Hadley child around the time of the murders. Ms. Hammack arranged to visit with Ms. Carmichael, now 74 years old at her home. What follows is a tape recorded transcript of that meeting.

D = Doris
B = Beatrice

B: Come on in, honey, mind your step there.

D: Hello Mrs. Carmichael, thank you so much for agreeing to see me today.
B: Well, now, it's Miss Carmichael, never married you know, and I'm not so sure I can be of any help to you, mind, but come on in and let's chat a bit.

D: Miss Carmichael, is it all right with you if I run my tape recorder for notes while we talk? I've got a terrible memory and it'd be a great help to me.
B: Hmmm, I just don't know about that. For notes you say? What do you need notes for? You writing a book or something?

D: No ma'am, just working to find every clue I can to who I really am. May I keep it on please?
B: I suppose, but it makes me nervous I must say. If I ask you to turn it off, you will won't you?

D: Oh yes ma'am, sure will.
B: All right then, for now I guess that'll do. I don't like it though. You say you want to find out who you are?

D: Yes, exactly.
B: First of all, I'm afraid you'll be disappointed here, I don't think there is anything I can tell you, and further, young lady, I think it's a waste of your time to be digging around in your past. Never know what you might find. Best to let the past lie. Doesn't matter none anyhow, you're a grown woman. Good manners, nice looking, you are what you make of yourself you know. Looks like you've made out just fine. That ought to be enough I'd say.

D: Miss Carmichael, you have a good point there, but you see, I grew up in foster homes after being abandoned at a Catholic Girls school when I was only five years old. I have no idea who my parents were, what my exact birthday is, where I came from, none of those things that give us roots in our lives. I'd like to know those things about myself, my past, my parents. I'm trying to find out whatever I can, no matter how small a piece of that picture it might be.
B: How did you end up here in Oxford? I heard you were from up north somewheres?

D: Yes, ma'am, I'm from Detroit. That's where I was dropped off at the Catholic Girls home and I have lived in the Detroit area since. I have a letter that was given to the nuns at the Catholic home when I was left that says I'm from north Mississippi originally. I've been looking for some years in the area and I have reason to think I might be from Oxford.
B: Hmmm, yes, read about that in the paper. You think you're LeAnne Izard, isn't that it?

D: Well, I think there's a good chance of that, yes.
B: What makes you think so?

D: I have a ring, just the setting really, that matches the ring that belonged to Mrs. Izard. The forensics people believe it's the same one. That and the fact that LeAnne Izard was born in 1955 and so was I according to the letter left with me.
B: That can't possibly be true. I know that ring you are talking about, you couldn't possibly have the same one. It was in all the papers you know, it was taken when they were murdered. You couldn't have ended up with it. That's just too far fetched. You've been talking to the police about all this?

D: Yes, I've talked to Detective Nelson at the Sheriff's Department about it.
B: Well now, this can't be any good for anyone. Dredge up all the old dirt around here, not a good thing at all. I'm not feeling very well, young lady. It's my heart you know, shot to hell. I'm not sure I can talk to you any more today. Or any day for that matter. Not sure I want to get mixed up in all this. Those Izard kids are dead, must be after all these years, that's all past and can't be changed. No trace of them ever found, none ever will be I'm sure. Nothing anything you or I do is going to change that.

D: Miss Carmichael, you're awfully pale, are you all right?
B: No, I'm not. Hand me my nitroglycerin tablets there on that table.

(long pause in tape)

D: Would you like me to leave now, Miss Carmichael? I can come back another time.
B: No, no, I'm all right now. Right as I'm going to be anyway. Let's get this over with, you're here now.

D: If you're sure?
B: Yes, yes let's get on with it.

D: You seem to feel it's not possible for me to be LeAnne Izard, is that right?
B: I don't think so, no, not about the Izard baby. I can't be completely sure I suppose, but I don't think so. I think you put me in mind of a girl I used to know. That's why you came to me isn't it?

D: A woman called the Eagle and referred me to you, as I told you on the phone. She said she thought my picture in the paper looked like the Hadley family here in Oxford. I understand that there are no remaining relatives in the area and that you took care of a little Hadley girl for a while in 1959. I'm here to see if perhaps that was me.
B: Thought that was it. Now, let me think a minute.

(long pause in tape)

B: You know, I don't like gossip. Who was that called you about me anyway?
D: I don't know who it was, she didn't give me her name, I suppose I could try to find out through the paper if it matters that much to you.

B: It might. I'd like to know who that was and why they called about me. Small town gossips, I swear. I'll be glad when I die and they have somebody else to talk about. Lot of nerve dragging me into this, I never wanted to be a part of it. I've never enjoyed being talked about.

(another long pause in tape)

D: Miss Carmichael, do you remember that little girl?
B: Remember her? Lands sakes, the only little girl I ever took care of? Fed and clothed, bathed and nursed for near on a year? I should think so.

D: Of course, I'm so glad you do. Can you tell me about her, if I resemble her?
B: That was near on 40 years ago and I can't be absolutely certain, but yes, I'd say you do resemble her. A bit hard to tell comparing her to a grown woman's face, but you have the same look about your eyes. She had sad eyes something like yours. Shape of your face, they way you smile, yes there is a strong resemblance there. You have her name, too. Her name was Doris, Doris Hadley.

D: How did you come to be taking care of her, Miss Carmichael?
B: That was back after the Bowlan plant shut down. Her father, Howard Hadley worked there you see, and he got laid off in '58. I guess the story really goes back further than that. Howard's wife, Merilyn ...

D: Merilyn, what a beautiful name.

B: Do you think so? Maybe, I never much cared for it. She died in childbirth when Doris was born you see. Howard, he had a hard time getting along after that and when the plant closed down in '58, there wasn't much work around here. He did some odds and ends of things, worked at the Farm Supply for a few months, but nothing that lasted and he was getting in over his head in debt. He decided to go north, like many of them did back then, looking for a better job. A union job. Auto industry is what he was looking into I believe. At any rate, he couldn't well be taking a little three year old around with him looking for jobs with no place in particular to stay and not much money so I agreed to help him out and have Doris stay with me for a few months until he got settled in someplace.

D: And did he?
B: Yes, yes he finally did. Somewhere in Michigan.

D: In Detroit?
B: Could be, that's still in Michigan last I heard.

D: You aren't sure?
B: Well, I think it was Detroit now that you mention it.

D: What happened to Doris?
B: She went to live with her father, of course. That's the last I heard of her or him. I don't care what anybody else tells you, she went back to him and that was that.

D: Then it is possible I'm Doris Hadley!
B: Could be, yes. You don't have the same last name though. Where did you get Hammack?

D: There was a Howard Hammack who died in Detroit about the time I was taken to the Catholic Girls home there. You don't suppose Howard might have changed his name from Hadley to Hammack, do you?
B: I can't suppose on that. You'd have to ask someone else, I knew Howard Hadley, not Howard Hammack so I wouldn't know. What do you know about this Howard Hammack, was he a relation to you?

D: I don't know. All I know is that the searches the social services people did to trace relatives of mine turned up his name a long time later as somebody who died in Detroit around the time I was orphaned. There was never any other information on him I could find. It seems almost too much to be coincidence, doesn't it? I mean Doris Hadley's father went to Detroit, she went to Detroit, Hadley and Hammack aren't that far apart, both men were named Howard. That's quite a string of coincidences don't you think?
B: Seems that way. Might be. I don't know.

D: Miss Carmichael, tell me about Doris Hadley, what was she like during her time with you?
B: She was a pretty little thing and very smart. I taught her the alphabet, how to count, some things like that when she was with me. She wasn't much trouble, I'll grant you that. She ate whatever I fixed, not like some kids do, and she was very sweet. I seldom had to discipline her. I did love tucking her in at night, reading stories. She liked stories. She was used to being invisible though, very quiet, all big eyes and biting her lower lip. It was Howard's fault, that was.

D: How so?
B: Howard was big and mean, like a bear. Very burly, but men in those days worked hard to earn a living. Dangerous looking, but attractive, too. To me anyway. He drank a lot. He could get quite loud and abusive when he was drunk, scary for a little child. I don't think he ever hit her or anything like that, mind you, but he could be ugly.

D: Were there any other children?
B: No, just Doris. Like I said, Merilyn died in childbirth with Doris in 1955.

D: When was Doris' birthday?
B: Let me think, it was July, July 18th I believe. Yes, that's right. July 18th.

D: What was Merilyn like, Doris' mother, maybe my mother?
B: She was nice enough, I didn't really know her myself. I never got the impression that she and Howard were happy together, though. She was a quiet, meek sort of person, pretty, not the sort to stand up to Howard. That's about all I can tell you. She and I were never friends so I don't know much else about her.

D: Do you know of any other relatives of Howard, Merilyn or Doris Hadley?
B: None that I know of. I know Howard's parents were deceased and he had no brothers or sisters. Merilyn, well no relations came to the funeral as I recall and Howard led me to believe there wasn't any family.

D: So that's why you ended up taking Doris in?
B: Yes, that and the fact that at one time I'd thought Howard and I might get married you see. That never worked out though. Just as well. Whatever else he was, Howard Hadley was a friend, at least for awhile. This was his house at one time, you know. Doris was born here.

D: Oh!
B: Yes, now before you go getting any ideas young lady, Howard Hadley signed it over to me fair and square. I can't stop you from looking up the deed at the courthouse, but it's my home and no one says you are Doris Hadley anyway.

D: I don't want your house, Miss Carmichael. Tell me more about Doris staying with you and how she ended up in Detroit.
B: Well, I had Doris with me from, let's see, I think it was September of '58 to late summer '59, nearly a year. It wasn't meant to be that long, but Howard kept coming up with reasons why he wasn't ready for Doris to go live with him. I was a single woman, trying to start my own business. I didn't have any relatives or anyone around here who could help me out taking care of a child. She was a sweet child, but I had a life of my own. She wasn't my child, she had to go back to her father. I couldn't have taken care of her until she grew up.

D: Do you think Doris' father would have permitted that if you could?
B: (snorts) Yes, I surely do. You didn't know him, but I did. Howard was as selfish as the day is long and a child to take care of was a great inconvenience to him. He'd have had me take care of her forever if he thought he could get away with it. But Howard was the right person to end up with Doris. She was his flesh and blood after all. A man's got to take care of his own family, don't you think? It also meant he had to think about someone besides himself for a change. I couldn't afford it either. Howard rented out this house when he went to Detroit. Rented it to the Warrens. That's another family that got laid off from Bowlan, Elbert was his name. The rent was to come to me to help take care of Doris and of course pay the mortgage. It was never enough, and then in '59 Jeannie Warren lost her job, too, and no one had any money, so what little I got out of the house went to the mortgage. Howard owed me quite a bit of money. That's one reason he signed over the house to me, you see.

D: How did Doris get to Detroit?
B: I took her. On the train from Memphis. Met Howard at the station, turned around and came right back home.

D: Miss Carmichael, did you stay in touch with Howard Hadley?
B: Not to speak of, no. I had my own life here in Oxford.

D: Miss Carmichael, I'm not quite sure how to ask this except directly. Did you take Doris to the Catholic Children's home? Am I Doris Hadley?
B: What a notion! No I did not. I can't say for sure if you are Doris Hadley, but you could be. I'd say that's a better idea than that you were the Izard girl. I'm not well at all. I'm tired. I think I've said all I have to say to you. Is this almost over with? I need to lie down.

D: Yes ma'am. I'm sorry to take up so much of your time. I have one final question for you. Do you have any photos of Doris or of Howard and Merilyn?
B: None of Howard or Merilyn, no. What use would I have for that? I do have a photo of Doris though. Would ... would you like to see it?

D: Would I! Yes, ma'am!
B: Just a minute. It's right in my bedroom.

D: I hate to ask you to get up. Can I get it for you?
B: No. Thank you, but my bedroom is private. Just wait there, please.

(Tape recorder is turned off while Miss Carmichael goes to the other room.)

B: Here you are. Mind the frame, now. It's porcelain.

(There is a 10-second pause on the tape here.)

D: (Spoken with tears in her voice) Oh, she sort of looks like me. See, the way her smile turns up? And the shape of her jaw and the way her eyebrows do and ... oh my. Is this wishful thinking? This could be me. Look -- I've always smiled like that!
B: I suppose so. You do favor Doris Hadley.

D: I can hardly believe this. I don't suppose ... you don't think I could borrow this and have it copied? I would bring the original back to you. I'd love to have a forensics expert maybe look at this and give me an expert opinion.
B: I don't know about that. That's all I've got of Doris, and I don't really know you.

D: But ...
B: Well ... if it means that much to you, if it'll make you happy, I might be able to see my way clear to let you do that.

D: That's so kind of you. Really. I would treasure it.
B: You're welcome. Now is that about all? Really, I'm very tired.

D: I was just wondering -- that was so long ago, and you've kept this picture all these years. You must have loved her.
B: Loved? I suppose I did at that. But she wasn't my child, you understand. She had to go back to her father.

D: Do you think she was happy with him?

(There is an 11-second pause on the tape at this point.)

B: I don't know. I hope so. But it's not my fault, whatever you may think. And I don't know.

D: Well, Miss Carmichael, I thank you for your time. I can tell you don't feel well. I really do appreciate your talking with me. I'll leave you now.
B: Not sure I've helped you any.

D: You've helped me a great deal. I am truly wondering now if I am in fact, Doris Hadley. It makes sense. I'm trying to recall as much as I can of my own memories. Perhaps what you've told me will help with my recall.

B: What do you mean?
D: I'm in the process of making arrangements for a hypnotherapy session to try to uncover my earliest childhood memories ...

B: No! You shouldn't do that! I mean ... isn't that dangerous? Montel did a show on that once, about ... what did that man call it ... false memory syndrome? Yes! They could make you believe things that didn't really happen. I wouldn't go through that, Doris, this hypnotism is a bad idea. You don't want to mess with your mind. Don't do it. I'm sure you would regret it.

D: Miss Carmichael, are you all right? Should I call a doctor for you? I'm sure it will be safe. Please, I didn't mean to upset you so.
B: No, no, just need to rest. Hand me my nitroglycerin there again please.

(The tape recorder is shut off at this point and after assisting Miss Carmichael, Doris left her home.)