Witness Interview: Lydia Catlett

Interviews were conducted with homeowners living near the Izard home on County Road 106 locally known as Sadler's Hill Road. The initial neighborhood interviews were conducted at the neighbors' homes on the afternoon and into the evening of the Izard murders, Friday, April 11, 1958.

M = Detective Jack McPhail
C = Lydia Catlett

M: Good afternoon, Mrs. Catlett.
C: Oh, no, it's not a good afternoon at all. Those poor, poor people next door. I hope you catch whoever did this to them and you find those precious, precious children.

M: We do too, Ma'am. I need to ask you a few questions.
C: Son, excuse me, but you're going to have to speak up. I'm a little hard of hearing.

M: Yes Ma'am. Mrs. Catlett, would you mind giving me for the record your full name, age, occupation and address please?
C: Certainly. I am Lydia Catlett, and you may call me Mrs. Catlett. I am the widow of George Catlett, who owned Catlett's Auto Parts in Oxford. You probably knew him? Passed on two years ago. I have some savings, so thank goodness I have no need to work outside the home. I'm 70 years old. Oh, and my address is Rural Route 2, Box 211, Oxford. Is that all young man?

M: No, Ma'am. Did you hear or see anything from over at the Izards' house today?
C: Hear anything? I'm sorry, no I didn't. I saw Mrs. Izard out with the wash just a bit before noon. I go out in the morning and in the evening and try to stay in the house during the heat of the afternoon you see. I did see young Richard drive up just as I was coming in. I came in and fixed myself something to eat and I was inside listening to the radio this afternoon. I could just kick myself. If only I'd been outside on the porch listening maybe I could've done something. But I just can't take the heat of the sun like I used to. I'm not a young woman anymore.

M: I can understand that Mrs. Catlett, the heat of the summer here gets to be too much for me at times, too. So you last saw Mrs. and Mr. Izard today around noon, that right?
C: Yes, you got that right.

M: When was the last time you saw the children?
C: Those precious babies, I saw Ricky yesterday when he come home from school, come running up the yard over there to their porch, I can see that from here you can see out that window there. I saw Mrs. Izard with the little girl this morning around about 10:30 I'd say. Near that.

M: You didn't hear or see anything of children after that today, no noise, no shouts, no crying?
C: No. Couldn't hear most of that anyways unless I was out in the garden there.

M: Mrs. Catlett, did you see any suspicious people or unfamiliar vehicles in the area today?
C: Well, young man, as you can see, we live out in the country and not too many vehicles come along this way. I usually try to keep my eyes open even though my ears aren't what they used to be. I'm sorry I can't help you there, I haven't noticed any suspicious people or vehicles today.

M: Any unusual behavior among your neighbors?
C: We're all good, decent, God-fearing Christians down this way. I don't think you have anything to worry about with the neighbors. For the most part I'd have to go back out to the road or walk through my pasture to get up close to anyone to see anything much going on to talk about it. Far as I could tell no one was to home next door at Roland's place, saw him leave early this morning. That young lady across the street was gone today, and of course Tina down the road was glued to the phone most of the afternoon.

M: Ma'am?
C: Party line you know. Tina Hawkins makes it her business to be the mouthpiece of the County. I heard about the Bowlan factory layoffs that way, I couldn't help overhearing her talking on the line to her sister a little while ago. That Harold Bowlan, scandalous thing he done there, hurt many a family in this county today.

M: Yes, Ma'am. Can you tell me of anyone who might have a personal grudge against the Izards?
C: Well, I am truly sorry to say I guess I'd be one of them. It was just a minor thing, not so's you'd call it a grudge. You see, when Richard bought that property he inherited that old picket fencing already in place along the side there. I'd been arguing for years with the previous owner, that'd be old Otis Shaw, that he had placed it two feet over onto my property and I wanted it moved back. Otis, well he was so lazy he offered to buy it from me rather than move that dang fence, at a pittance mind you. I don't believe in selling off land if you don't need to. 'Course he died before we settled that. Then that Richard was such a nice young man, but I couldn't seem to make him see that the fence needs to be moved, either. I was actually contemplating taking him to court, but I'd hoped it wouldn't come to that. They were such nice people otherwise.

M: To court over two feet?
C: It's my property, young man. A widow woman has to take care of her interests.

M: Uh, yes Ma'am. Is there anything else you can tell me about the Izards?
C: Well, I certainly do not like to talk out of turn, but there was that young man who used to come up to the Izards' home late on weekend nights, even I could hear him. He sounded drunk screaming such foul language. Mrs. Izard was horrified, of course. She used to come over here and apologize every time he made such a scene. I don't know whether she invited the attention of course, who knows about young women today? But I think he was one of those young men who couldn't accept that she wanted someone other than him. I'm sorry. I don't recall his name. Dancy something, don't know the family myself. The incidents stopped after a few months. I think Richard might have finally lost patience and had words with him.

M: You think Mrs. Izard might have encouraged that do you?
C: Well, actually, no I do not. She seemed a right smart young woman and very devoted to her church and family. She was a nurse you know. She's always been very considerate of me, bring me a pie if she was baking, come on over and chat with me. I know she was checking up on an old lady, but she was kind about it. Not the sort to be loose and fast if you get my meaning. All and still young women today aren't like my generation.

M: I get the idea there's more to this than you're telling me, Mrs. Catlett. Did something else happen to make you question Mrs. Izard's motives?
C: I'm no gossip young Jack McPhail and I don't intend to start at this old age.

M: I'm sure you aren't Mrs. Catlett, but surely you understand that anything out of the way might be important to us in our investigation here, might help us find those children. I assure you that any information you have will be dealt with professionally, Ma'am.
C: I've seen a car around the neighborhood late nights lately. I don't know it, but I have my thoughts on it. Funny thing is it seems to involve more than the Izard house.

M: A strange car?
C: I suppose you could call it strange for this area anyway, one of them new Chevy's I think. My grandson is always showing me pictures of them and I think that's what this one is. Big white arrow on the back fender. Dark car. Comes around after midnight or thereabouts every few days. I've seen it parked over to the end of the Izard's drive and a few times across the way there at young Hannah's house.

M: Go ahead Mrs. Catlett, what else about this car?
C: I do have to say I feel uncomfortable about this, loose tongues are the devil's handmaiden don't you know. I have to believe, however, that murder and missing children are of more importance in the Lord's eyes. Some nights I don't sleep very well and I sit in the front screen porch there to cool off and enjoy the night time. No traffic to speak of that time of night, nice and peaceful. About the middle of March I noted that car from time to time out at the end of the Izard's drive. Couldn't see much, couldn't hear more than a murmur from time to time though sound carries well on the night air you know. I can tell you over to the Izard's I saw the glow of cigarettes and I know Mrs. Izard don't smoke. He does.

M: How often did you see this car over there?
C: Young man, Kuhn isn't it? I recognize your father in your face, must be proud you're a Deputy. I made up some fresh lemonade this afternoon, mind you go and get us all a glass while we talk. Now, where was I? How often? I'd say I saw that car at the Izard drive going on six or seven times. I knew it was underhanded dealing when the car cut the lights coming up the road. Rolled to a stop over there trying not to crunch the gravel drive.

M: When was the last you saw the car there Mrs. Catlett?
C: Well, now, I know just what night that was. It was my grandson's birthday, that would be April 7th, this past Monday.

M: You say you saw this car across the road, too?
C: Yes I have, young man. Three times to be exact. One night I got up after one and went out on the porch. It was sitting there in the drive. I don't know when it got there but I know it was there after three when I went to bed. There were lights on in the kitchen across the way, could see the shine on the grass at the side there. Kitchen's on the back of the house you know. Didn't see anything else. The other two times there was a gathering going on.

M: A gathering?
C: Um. I'd say five cars over there, a group of folks. Again, after midnight lasting until the wee hours of the morning.

M: Mrs. Catlett, you clearly have some ideas about this, just what do you think was going on here?
C: I pretty well don't think, I mostly know I reckon. I recognized Elbert Warren over across the way a few times and I know Hannah has been keeping company with Bob Abbott's son, Frank I believe his name is. They all work at Bowlan and Richard of course being the foreman over there. I'd say there's only one person that car belongs to and only one reason they were all getting together in secret like that.

M: Mrs. Catlett, I'd like you to tell me flat out what your thinking on this is please.
C: Young Jack, that car belonged to that union agitator fella Perch and those get togethers were union plotting and planning sure as I sit here. Wasn't any friendly game of penny poker going on.

M: Did you ever meet Perch?
C: Actually I did at that. First time he came out this way he come to the door looking for Richard here. Thought I might be his Momma. Tried to play off he was a Fuller Brush man, but I knew better.

M: What else can you tell me about these gatherings or visits?
C: Can't say as I have much more than that for fact, the rest is an old woman's wisdom.

M: Now Ma'am, I'll tell you, with Mr. and Mrs. Izard murdered and their two young children missing, I'd say I'm willing to hear some old fashion southern wisdom about now. Please go on with your thoughts.
C: Not much more to say. I have given a moment or two to thinking over that young Richard next door didn't seem to be mindful of the Great Depression just past. In fact, I might go so far as to say that he seemed a might dazzled by spending and not so much mindful of saving. Mrs. Izard, dear thing, seemed to well know the expression make do or do without, but she didn't want to live it. Wanted the best for her family and I can't say I blame her, but I'm so sure she had her eyes open to what that was costing them. You might look into that young Jack McPhail.

M: Yes Ma'am. If I understand you correctly, you are saying that the Izard's were spending above their means?
C: That's a polite way of saying so, yes that's what I am saying.

M: You think these late night, uh, gatherings were part of this picture?
C: I do. Now my son Henry worked in Chicago for a time before he came back to Mississippi. He was a union man for a time there. Now he doesn't say much, but my grandson is not so shy. He's told me tales of graft, money changing hands and some blood stains on that money to boot. If I were in your shoes, which I thank the gracious Lord I am not, I might be wanting to have a very long talk with Miss Hannah there, and certainly Elbert Warren and I wouldn't pass over the chance to sit with Mr. Fuller Brush Perch a time either. I think that's about all I have to say on that.

M: Well, I do thank you Mrs. Catlett you've been quite helpful. I wonder if I might ask how old your grandson is now?
C: Of course, his birthday Monday brought him to 23 years and I'll let you in on a secret. He and his wife are having a baby. I'm fixing to be a great grandmama before I leave this earth.

M: Congratulations Mrs. Catlett, you surely do deserve it. What else can you tell me?
C: You might want to talk to the church members over at Bethlehem Primitive Baptist Church. They may know more than I do. I'm just an old lady who doesn't get out much. About the only one who stops to talk to me anymore other than my grandson is that Hinkley boy.

M: Tommy Joe?
C: Yes, although I prefer to use his real Christian name, Thomas. Most afternoons he brings my mail up to the house so I won't have to walk all the way down to the end of my driveway, and he stops to chat. Such a nice young man, and a vet, too. Did you serve in the War, young man?

M: Yes Ma'am, I did my duty. Tommy Joe come by today?
C: Yes. It was exactly 2:41 p.m. I know because my radio program announcer had just told the time and the weather prediction for the next day when I heard Thomas knock. It was during the Glen Miller hour. I do enjoy that so. I was listening to one of my favorites, Moonlight Serenade and Tuxedo Junction was coming up. Puts me in mind of George and I in our younger days. I suppose Thomas saw my attention was diverted, because he did not stay more than a minute or two. Oh, my goodness. You don't think the Izards were killed while Thomas and I were talking, do you?

M: We don't know that yet Mrs. Catlett.
C: I hope you'll be keeping an eye on us out here until this is settled. I do get nervous and I'd hate to think I have to live behind locked doors all the time.

M: I'll mention your request to Sheriff West, Ma'am. You have a good day now, you've been a big help to us.
C: Wait just a minute there, tell me what you are doing to find those little children.

M: Everything we can, Ma'am. Everything we can. We've got men all over, asking about them and combing through the woods near here.
C: I hope you don't have to drag the creek for them. Oh, my. I'm afraid they're dead, aren't they?

M: Probably not, Ma'am, but we don't know much at this point. Good day, now.
C: Good-bye young McPhail and Deputy Kuhn, you let me know what is going on with this investigation now. You let me know if I can help out anyway, I'll be praying for those dear children.

M: We'll do that Ma'am.